Original Trilogy,  Prequel Trilogy,  Skywalker Saga,  The Rise of Skywalker

Watch the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker – D23 special look

From StarWars.com:

“We are ready for December 20. Or so we thought.

D23 Expo 2019 saw the debut of new footage from Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker — and it has us more excited than ever for the final film of the Skywalker saga. For those who couldn’t make it to D23 Expo, or for those who want to see it again (and again), StarWars.com is excited to share the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker – D23 Special Look below!”

0 Comments

      • jpieper668

        They never respected the PT in the first Place Remember when Jerk Jerk Abrams talked about showing Jar Jar’s Skeleton and having Prequel Hater Simon Pegg in TFA?

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        It’s Reddit. Take a chill pill and pretend it doesn’t exist. Your peace of mind will increase exponentially.

        As I said in the other discussion thread, it’s not a good venue for discussion, and you can’t change the minds of people who’ve already made their minds up (99% of the human race) in advance. Especially at a place that’s one giant circle jerk of opinion based on a narrow range of preconceived and off-the-shelf notions.

        I don’t say that to sound snarky or abrupt. Unfortunately, the Internet refuses to be kind to the prequels, for the most part, but it’s a reflection of the culture we live in. People have collectively agreed that the prequels have the smell of inferiority all over them. They have also collectively agreed to never stick their necks out or to risk examining their biases and admitting they were wrong or clinging to specious attitudes.

        As for the general denial of anti-prequel sentiment from Disney/Lucasfilm:

        That’s exactly what I encountered from Disney fanatics on TFN. Experience has taught me you can’t expect anything less.

        These people either never cared for the prequels to begin with, or they later discovered they needed to severely dislike them, thus priming them to:

        a) feel totally indifferent to Disney/LFL implicitly or overtly shunning or maligning the prequels by proxy.

        b) believe they have the right to preach at prequel fans and deny Disney/LFL’s gaslighting tactics (thus becoming part of the gaslighting process).

        Of course, this also spares them the burden of actually having to think through anything on a deeper level (par for the course with their prequel hatred). They will literally just cherry-pick a random example as incontrovertible proof there was never a scheme to snub the prequels at all, and that it’s all in prequel fans’ over-sensitive minds. Case in point:

        pjtheman
        6 hours ago
        Disney literally brought back a Prequel character in the second Star Wars movie they made.

        The hell you mean “finally”?

        ————-

        Yes, that’s right — a single prequel character being brought back (although, if they’re referring to “Rogue One”, there are several, but all have limited screen-time) washes away all evidence of snubbing to the contrary. A single character!

        It’s impossible to reason with these people. Completely impossible. I hate to sound like TLJ Luke, but I think you’re wasting your time.

        And I’ve already presented so much evidence on TFN, and here, in previous discussion threads, I’m a little pooped out on the whole topic now.

        On the other hand, I suppose you might be thinking of just writing back, anyway, in case more open-minded people, with far less anti-prequel bias, are reading. I support you in that effort. But it’s on you. If you choose to face Darth Fanboy, you must do it alone. I cannot interfere.

        The best assistance I can offer you is this video I watched the other day. It gives a useful potted history of Disney’s actions since they bought the brand:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdVtKHRTfe8

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        Following on from the above…

        I was just looking for it, but it appears to have been deleted. There was, however, a rather hilarious fan “trailer” on YouTube for several years, that bashed the “practical effects” campaign surrounding TFA. It was a really handy compilation of clips from various events with a wide-ranging number of cast and crew, all spewing the Disney dogma. I know it was deleted and then re-uploaded at least once, but it appears to be completely gone now. A real pity.

        In any case (and you can see the broken video link for the trailer here), I did compile some of the remarks, myself, back in 2016, and made several posts to TFN about them. In this one, I presented the bulk of the quotes I compiled, all properly sourced:

        https://boards.theforce.net/threads/pt-discussion-of-future-sw-content-locked-discussion-moved-to-saga-board.50038854/page-69#post-53933302

        If that’s of any use to you, then use away and mine all the quotes you like.

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        You may also want to consult this follow-on post of mine, which has a few more quotes I left out of my earlier response (as cited above):

        https://boards.theforce.net/threads/pt-discussion-of-future-sw-content-locked-discussion-moved-to-saga-board.50038854/page-70#post-53935508

        Of course, there are just so many quotes, and so many obvious examples of them underhandedly bashing the prequels, it’s a Herculean task finding and presenting them all.

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryoegnic

        I’m taking a break from Reddit for now. I spend a bit of time there earlier, mostly on prequelmemes, where not only did I find a resurgence of the community’s creativity (it’s had a lull patch), but what I must say were great theory conversations.

        But r/StarWars?

        Oh my God. You know, I’m going to save myself a long rant, and just say this instead: I sure wish prequel fans had a similar Safe Space during the heat of the RLM reviews (the final few years of Lucasfilm under Lucas ownership).

        A prequel fan simply made a post there about how “glad” he was for Disney to acknowledge the PT in the trailer. It was completely harmless – no malice intended. But in the comments he/she has been eaten alive where in one response they made, they’re at a staggering -40 points! Now the thread itself has got over 1k points and made the front page, so it’s evident that PT fans do frequent r/StarWars, but that’s not how it goes inside. Oh, no, the anti-PT clowns are active inside and they’re all reaffirming each others delusions, upvoting each other to climb highly. The Pro-PT aren’t as well organised there, so that’s I was coming to you: asking for the heavy artillery.

        Oh dear, I’ve spoken too much. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of your old nemesis from TFN are now prowling around the comments in r/StarWars

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        “Oh dear, I’ve spoken too much. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of your old nemesis from TFN are now prowling around the comments in r/StarWars”

        Yep, it wouldn’t surprise me, either. But then again, those mentalities are the norm, so there’s a vast “clone army” ready to do their bidding and replace them. They all overlap with one another and sound identical.

        Funny you mention downvoting. The YouTube channel hackfraudmedia put out a review of TFA in 2017 and the stats are presently as follows:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N0_GdI8TWE

        187,464 views
        (Likes) 5,009
        (Dislikes) 1,875

        If you root around their channel, you’ll find their more extensive review of TLJ, named “The Last Straw”: a two-part monster only uploaded a few months ago. I sent you that one already. But here are the stats for those:

        (The Last Straw: Part 1)

        301,431 views
        (Likes) 9,497
        (Dislikes) 1,067

        (The Last Straw: Part 2)

        164,884 views
        (Likes) 6,986
        (Dislikes) 256

        Not sure if the numbers are high enough to be statistically meaningful, but the first of the two parts of their TLJ review has almost twice the views of their TFA review, and what’s more: the first part of their TLJ review has a much higher ratio of likes to dislikes (almost 10:1 compared to their TFA review at around 3:1). And for the people who stayed the course and watched the second part, the ratio of likes to dislikes is even higher (around 25:1).

        If those numbers are anything to go by, then people are more receptive to hearing TLJ bashed than they ever were for TFA.

        That’s part of the sloth we’re dealing with here. It takes people a while to see the light and actually start to *listen* to the other side.

        Is it any wonder most fans straight-up denied that there was anything untoward being said or implied about the prequels from Disney in 2015 and 2016?

        Really, only in the last eighteen months or so, since TLJ came out and people started processing it, has the tide been turning.

        People reaffirming each other’s delusions is something the Internet seems built for. There may be a certain irony to expressing that notion in a niche comments section, but we seem to have minds of our own and don’t just jump on the first thing we see? Unlike Reddit — which clearly caters to a knee-jerk (and circle-jerk) mentality. Pretty depressing place.

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryogenic

        I can recall leafing through some of that RLM review on TFA, out of curiosity, to see how they’d handle Star Wars post-PT. They’d gone to all the trouble of reviving their deranged review character, yet were spending a lot of time responding to pro-PT writers or explaining the Disney acquisition. WTF? What was with all that fluff?

        It brings a smile to my face then to learn that someone has called him out on it, in his own brand of irreverence and satire. This is all news to me. And boy does it feel sweet.

        I knew that Plinkett was back to his old ways on the TLJ review, but to hear he might have been cosying up to Disney propaganda, even for a little bit, can still makes him a hypocrite.

        I have no dog in this race. I am a prequelist first and foremast, so I tend to get a kick out of hearing of fanboys falling-out with greek media (or big YouTube channels). They can eat other up as far as I care.

        Plinkett can damn all the new movies he likes, but yours truly will not forget his long list of sins. And I hope all of you reading won’t either!

        Now, shall we return to the actual trailer? 🙂

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        Indeed. The RLM TFA review was really odd — hardly any time spent on the actual film, weak-tea criticisms overall (though some salient observations are made), and almost an hour of rambling about online prequel material before the main review starts, including considerable time given to Mike Klimo’s “Ring Theory”.

        Plinkett even expresses something approaching sympathy and respect for Lucas’ maverick tendencies (albeit backhandedly). Beneath the sardonic overtones, it feels like Stoklasa appreciates the idea that Star Wars was more artistic and compelling under Lucas, even if he goes easy on Disney and can’t bring himself to thoroughly roast TFA like it deserved.

        It’s great to have another channel calling Plinkett/Stoklasa out, though I think some of it is tongue-in-cheek. Not saying the criticisms aren’t sincere. I don’t detect ill will. Still, these newer, fuller reviews make it abundantly clear that the RLM material is inadequate and somewhat cowardly where the new films go.

        Here’s an example:

        Even without any distracting prequel bashing at the start, RLM’s TLJ review is a bit tardy at only an hour long, which is noticeably shorter than their prequel reviews. Those grew in length for each film (starting at 70 mins for TPM and capping out at 1 hr 40 mins for ROTS), and they more or less established the long-form video review as something of an online geek-culture staple. That said, if you delete the “serial killer” stuff, they’re probably a similar length — but it’s that same material that puffs up the length of those earlier reviews, adding to their legend, and making them seem more authoritative and imposing.

        RLM’s TLJ review is certainly better and entertaining, and a bit more old-school, but I agree that they flunked out for the Disney movies, and even coddled up to Disney, as you said (which, as you also said, is hypocritical on their part). This effectively left the field of criticism right open, encouraging new acolytes to surpass them and — in the words of Kylo — finish what they started. Ironically, that’s the main theme of the sequel trilogy. So there’s something a bit meta about it all.

        Anyway, the new trailer…

        Er, hang on, though!

        What trailer? Are we calling that “sizzle reel” thing a trailer? Okay, if we must.

        More like sizze and then fizzle, in my opinion. Fresh imagery from Abrams can “wow” you on a first or second view, but then it wears off fast.

        I did like the sallow-looking, red-scissor-saber-wielding “Sith Witch” Rey at the end, or whatever she’s meant to be. Daisy Ridley has kind of a bitch face, so I think she can pull off a decent villain. It also feels (a bit) like a response to the widespread accusations that Rey is a “Mary (or Ma-Rey) Sue”. It’s not organically earned and presents more like a shock tactic. It’s also likely a scam: a dream sequence, another “cave” scene, or whatever. Heck, they are “caving” to pressure, aren’t they? The same with Threepio’s red eyes.

        Pretty sure we’re not going to end the saga with Rey and Threepio becoming and staying villains (an evil Sue and an evil toaster), but you never know. Well, I mean, of course not! But maybe there are well-motivated plot reasons for them slapping on a red dress and becoming Palpatine’s harlots, or whatever. Alas, this is a J.J. Abrams movie we’re talking about, so we shouldn’t get too carried away here. More than likely, they’re just gimmicks: fanboy garnish. Remember Threepio’s red arm? Yeah, don’t worry. Rian Johnson forgot about it, too.

        What’s that? Midi-chlorians?

        They’re like so 33rd Century.

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryogenic

        I know exactly why you’re unhappy with the trailer: it’s as much a compilation of the saga so far, as it is a glimpse of the upcoming film.

        And as a compilation, I will agree, it doesn’t rank as highly as any of the “amateur” ones you can find on YouTube. Have you seen some of these by the way? Like Obi-Wan has PTSD, The Chosen one etc. These tend to give a healthy balance between the OT and the PT, and vividly describe just how much they impact one another.

        This professional complication has the key benefit of having its own score arranged for it. Take away that, or grant the fan-made ones this opportunity, and I’m afraid it doesn’t look near as good.

        Yet still, the wedding scene from your favourite Star Wars movie appears. You’ve got to give them that, it does feel like a bit of a middle finger to the detractors of the relationship, if you ask me.

        While I didn’t expect the PT to show up in any of this, looking back now I would have liked the dashing, heroic, war veteran that is Anakin of the first act of RotS to have shown up. That only the romantic part of him showed up, and that Palpatine in his disguised, politician form didn’t either, leaves me with many questions as to “Rise of Skywalker”. The theme of family is very noticeable in that trailer.

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        I’m not necessarily unhappy with the trailer. Just unmoved.

        The wedding scene (and all the prequel footage in general) is a welcome inclusion. The whole thing has a nice polish about it. The wedding shot itself is introduced with a lovely dissolve: from Shmi caressing Anakin’s face to Anakin and Padme rubbing noses and kissing. Kind of interesting. The music rounds it all off pretty well. I certainly appreciate the “family feel” of the new trailer. But it’s also a bit crooked (unsurprisingly), which I’ll come onto in just a moment. Digression first:

        There are some decent fan-made trailers out there. My favourites are still the ones put out by five years ago by Steven Thomas. Here’s the PT one:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf4-A33XNTQ

        Did you notice something else about the new trailer? Here’s a breakdown:

        0:00 – 0:09 (Black screen) … 9 seconds
        0:09 – 0:26 (ANH) … 17 seconds
        0:27 – 0:38 (TESB) … 11 seconds
        0:38 – 0:43 (ROTJ) … 5 seconds
        0:44 – 0:47 (TPM) … 3 seconds
        0:48 – 0:51 (AOTC) … 3 seconds
        0:51 – 0:55 (ROTS) … 4 seconds
        0:55 – 1:12 (TFA + TLJ) … 17 seconds (TFA = 14 seconds, TLJ = 3 seconds)

        Ranked in order of screen time (most to least):

        1. ANH (17 seconds)
        2. TFA (14 seconds)
        3. TESB (11 seconds)
        4. ROTJ (5 seconds)
        5. ROTS (4 seconds)
        6. TPM, AOTC, TLJ (3 seconds each)

        Interestingly, the three most disparaged saga films have the least screen time, while the three most raved about on release (ANH, TFA) or in subsequent years (TESB), get the most.

        The times are just approximations, though. I haven’t run the trailer through a video package and counted the exact frames. I just played and paused a few times on YouTube, and tried to intuit which was the fairest “second” on which to determine a time-border for each film.

        Also: the TESB footage has a shot of Boba Fett from ROTJ in it, but I’m treating that as a mistake. The films don’t otherwise overlap with each other in this manner until the end of the montage with TFA and TLJ. Either way, this is how much screen time each trilogy gets in the montage, most to least:

        OT = 33 seconds (mean average = 11 seconds per film)
        ST = 17 seconds (mean average = 8.5 seconds per film)
        PT = 10 seconds (mean average = 3.5 seconds per film)

        Once again, the PT ends up making the least contribution, by dint of whoever assembled or oversaw this trailer. You might reasonably expect the sequels to feature a bit more, and they certainly do, if you consider the fact that the montage section can only, by definition, include two sequel movies, given that it’s building to the reveal of new footage from Episode IX. The mean averages tell the real story, adjusting for there being only two films in the ST montage. In other words, the OT and ST completely dominate here, while the PT gets the loser’s podium.

        That said, due to the weightiness of prequel imagery, your brain can almost become tricked into believing the prequels are more fairly represented here than they actually are. But that’s really not the case. Despite the density of imagery within the prequels, and their obvious relevance to the rise of Palpatine and the Skywalker mythology, they are barely in the montage. AOTC literally has two shots representing the whole movie. Appropriate shots, to be sure (love and war), but extremely poor given the fact that TESB gets nine (or eight excluding the Boba shot from ROTJ). Even poor ol’ TLJ has three shots.

        I don’t know why they couldn’t have striven to make the flashback montage a bit more balanced. And why the prequels have been diminished yet again. Well, we know the latter has been Disney’s modus operandi for a while now…

        See? Even when Abrams and the rest talk a good talk about being inclusive and respectful of all eight previous films and acknowledging the full breadth of the saga (like this shouldn’t have been the case from the very beginning), they *still* find ways of treating the prequel trilogy like a second-class citizen.

      • Cryogenic

        @ Arch Duke:

        Correction:

        “Even poor ol’ TLJ has three shots.”

        Actually, it has four shots. Only strengthening my point.

        I didn’t waste time counting all the shots before. I think I goofed up because I relied on (or got fooled by) the preview slider thing on YouTube to double-check the TLJ shots. Bad idea. It doesn’t show the shot of Luke kissing Leia on the forehead. Maybe it has incest detection built in! I spent more time making sure my other numbers were correct (or as fair as I could make them and that my arithmetic was right).

        Anyway…

        Given that each TLJ shot lasts roughly a second, I should revise the figures, too:

        Re-ranked in order of screen time (most to least):

        1. ANH (17 seconds)
        2. TFA (13 seconds)
        3. TESB (11 seconds)
        4. ROTJ (5 seconds)
        5. ROTS, TLJ (4 seconds each)
        6. TPM, AOTC (3 seconds each)

        So TLJ gains a second and places 5th with ROTS. Meanwhile, TFA loses a second but keeps the same rank.

        It doesn’t really affect anything else I said. Other than the two most disliked films of the saga (or least loved for the longest span of time) are now rank bottom without TLJ being there. But TLJ is floating only the merest point above.

        The trilogy screen time breakdowns come out exactly the same. And like I said, the times are only approximations. There’s a certain fudge factor at work. But it’s still clear and accurate to say that ANH, TFA, and TESB are way ahead in terms of screen time in the montage, while the prequels are either joint second-to-last (ROTS) or completely last (TPM, AOTC). But Disney doesn’t have an agenda against the prequels!

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryogenic

        Look at the part with RotJ. Isn’t it rather conspicuous that no shot whatsoever appears from the final throne room scene? Neither do we get Luke with his dying father, or Palpatine being thrown down the reactor shaft to his death. Any true SW reel must include some of that, surely?

        As to “Darth Rey”: it’s quite bizarre they through that in. Nobody is buying that she’s turned to the dark side, or will seriously even consider it. Like Creepio, I suspect its the merchandise people whispering into the ear of the marketing people. Toy sales are at all time low, so you gotta do what you gotta do – it doesn’t matter if this dark rey has zero impact on the film. As to regards what it is, it’s either

        A) A vision
        B) A clone

        I like the idea of a vision the most. It could be her glimpsing an imagined future for herself.

        If we go with answer B, then we should suspect that the “Good Rey” we got in VII and VIII was another clone. And surprise, surprise, they’ll end up fighting each other in a duel. Likely that Palpatine was behind the whole project.

        But how does Palpatine even survive?!!!

        There are so many important questions left unanswered, and so many meaningless characters like Finn, Poe and Rose that’ll require attention, that I just don’t know. I feel like we’ll get a major detour like we did with the first act of RotJ, when I would much prefer the razor-sharpness of RotS. Don’t get me wrong the “carnival planet” looks incredible, even TPM-seque, but it may hog too much time. Or maybe not, it could be like Utapau?

        I still believe IX come be the best of the sequels. VIII was a disaster, while VII was an uninspired remake. It can’t be that hard to do better, now can it? Cutting down the trite Marvel-style humour would be a GREAT START.

        Make this Driver’s film. He’s our only Skywalker (read: hope).

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryogenic

        That’s an outstanding recap of the PT. Thank you for sharing!

        I know we went to town on Obi-Wan’s role in a recent discussion, but seeing that video now reminds of all those gut-wrenching words the character spoke on Mustsafar. McGregor’s performance is near-perfect, he captures every bit of a man still in shock, despair, but crucially also: regret and guilt.

        Maybe that really is all that separates the two Jedi. One could bury his hubris, and acknowledge his failings, even if he might be in the right – the other simply couldn’t.

        That’s what makes Obi-Wan the character we love. He may be wise, he may be powerful, but he’s more human more than anything.

        And he goes into exile. Wait… that sounds familiar…

      • Natalie

        @cryo Visual density is what I love the prequels for. I can overlook some weak spots in terms of dialogue or acting because the visuals + music/sounds give me the feeling no other modern blockbusters can provide. I suppose LOTR came close except as a Tolkien fan I really hated how dumbed down everything was and all the self-indulgence on display. Just like GoT’s showrunners PJ gone bad when he didn’t have the source material to rely on in the Hobbit movies.

        But I digres… The prequels blow the sequels out the water in terms of visual storytelling, no doubt about it.

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Cryogenic

        Honestly though, if we’re going to get an alternative history for Rey, which this Dark version seems to be suggest, I’m going to be real bummed out if we never get – in TV of film – the version of Anakin at his peak powers, aka “powerful Jedi ever” mode.

        As outrageous as it might sound, its not any more ludicrous than Palpatine surviving death after RotJ. Think about it.

        I do fear that Episode IX may lead to the wrath of PT/RotJ fans, as VIII did for all who believed in Luke. There is no denying that the prequels, especially III, greatly enhance VI. Once you see them, you can’t look at the throne room scene the same way again. They therefore form a bond that is the Lucas Saga – the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. So to nullify the ending of RotJ, that is the sacrifice of the Chosen One, would be tantamount to heresy.

        Can you imagine if some author to Tolkien was allowed to come in years later and re-do the ending of Return of the King? To resurrect Saruman and ignore the heroes who originally defeated him, because you need to have a trite “new generation” who had never previously been heard of? That’s what we’re talking of.

        The more I think about it, the more I feel convinced that the new trilogy should have focused on a time period a long, long time before Lucas’ trilogies. The Old Republic?

        But they needed to jump on the saga bandwagon, didn’t they? They wanted their Luke and their big money box offices, yet they also wanted to re-write all that Lucas has accomplished with banal modern day characters? You don’t have to be a hardcore fan to be upset about this.

        Disney (Lord Igor et all) want their cake, and they want to eat it too.

      • jpieper668

        @Cyro
        one problem the channel(which made the video you showed) is run by people who hate the prequels there was a video criticizing them

  • archdukeofnaboo

    I’ve gotta admit, this trailer hooked me. It reminds me of those compilation videos of the saga, like Hero Fan Productions has done.

    The original episode IX trailer had little to do with the PT, until Palpatine’s laugh popped in (out of nowhere) at the end.

    But this? It’s clear that Abrams is making visual homages to the prequels: we may only have a minute of new footage here, but I’ve already spotted 3 notable ones. As I cannot post the screenshots here, I’d like to invite you to to where I’ve done so:

    https://naberriefields.freeforums.net/thread/18/pt-characters-episode-speculation-discussion

  • bruce wayne

    What’s most funny about prequel haters is they find the prequel trilogy too dark and they don’t even realize it. That is the big reason they hate it. It’s just too dark for them. Not really sure what they were expecting. This is a trilogy about a hero turning bad and a generally righteous and noble order becoming extinct. They complain about there not being any scenes of Anakin training in the force, even though there is really no room or reason for those types of scenes. They complain about Anakin’s massive flaws even though he needs to eventually turn to the darkside. They complain about the melodramatic and melancholy atmosphere even though it suits the trilogy. (The swashbuckling Flash Gordon tone of the OT simply would not do). They complain about the Jedi being “cold”. They complain about a lack of focus on the mystical side of the force. Which is all sort of the the point of the trilogy and a big reason for their fall. (The reason Obiwan appears more “warm” in ANH is that he has learned the lessons of his mistakes in the prequels. He is also more prepared to be the father figure to Luke that he couldn’t be to Anakin.)

  • Michael Kelly

    I was not impressed with this “sizzle reel” anymore than I was impressed with the trailer. For me, the trailer and sizzle reel have shown the continuation of Abrams TFA plan. A Star Wars movie driven by Nostalgia, and not a story for the sake of the story. Hence why the return of the Emperor/Palpatine/Sidious is so off putting to me. It reeks of Nostalgia for the sake of Nostalgia because they can’t come up with a compelling enough story of their own. It’s looking like Palpatine is going to play a pretty similar rub between Kylo and Rey that he played between Vader and Luke in ROTJ. By killing Snoke in TLJ, they killed of the big bad that Abrams needed for his ROTJ style ending, so hell, might as well go all out and find a way to bring Palpatine back. Nostalgia… Nostalgia… Nostalgia…

    As for Dark Side Rey… I have taken some heat on facebook, but, to me… it screams ESB style cave scene. The background lighting and environment even seems very similar to what we see the Vader Vision from ESB walks out from…

    https://starwarsanon.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/darth-vader-dagobah-cave.jpg?w=685

    I have always been against the heavy nostalgia driven story that TFA had, and it seem it might… might be that way with TROS as well…

      • Moose

        Cryogenic:

        I imagine no one watches the Disney cartoon “The Lion Guard” in these parts, but my kids sure do. It follows the adventures the young Kion (son of Simba) and his buddies. Anyway a recent double episode, timed to come out after “The Lion King” re-make, featured the seemingly deceased Scar. Scar, of course, was the bad guy in “The Lion King”, Simba’s uncle who killed Musfasa, Simba’s father. Scar was burned and eaten at the end of “The Lion King”. This new Scar in the cartoon appears out of the fire in a volcano, but he can surely talk and order his minions around. Anyway, Kion (our third-generation hero) must defeat Scar “once and for all.” I did not, however, see Kion with a double-sided red lightsaber.

    • Cryogenic

      @ Mike (!!!)

      Ah, Mike! There you are! Rise Of The Mikeximus!

      “By killing Snoke in TLJ, they killed of the big bad that Abrams needed for his ROTJ style ending, so hell, might as well go all out and find a way to bring Palpatine back.”

      Yep. Nostalgia is one angle, and certainly a not-insignificant one. There’s also the the notion kicking around that Abrams is seeking to undo and discard what Johnson did in TLJ.

      For example, in the first shot of the Episode IX trailer, the camera starts on Rey’s face and then moves down to her waist, giving the viewer a clear glimpse of the lightsaber she detaches from her belt in that moment, which looks a heck of a lot like the smashed “Anakin” saber that Luke threw off the cliff and Rey and Kylo broke apart in their “Force” tug-of-war. Then there is that shot of Kylo’s mask getting repaired, which Kylo petulantly destroyed at the start of TLJ after Snoke mocked him for wearing it, calling it “ridiculous”. Plus the return of desert imagery (Abrams’ idea of Star Wars being a fun “western”), and having the “crew” back together again, as opposed to being split up in TLJ, where they were running around on weird casino planets or arguing with purple-haired female commanders with opaque survival plans and a bizarre sense of boosting morale.

      Of course, it may all be nothing more than Abrams having no clue what else to do with the property, so he’s just falling back on the basic motifs he established in TFA, adding a little more OT seasoning for good measure. But the disposing of Snoke certainly seems to have created a problem for the final movie. So plugging Palpatine in is an obvious fix that kills several birds with one stone. Snoke’s sudden demise may yet be retconned into the plot of Episode IX. There are various rumours swirling that suggest Palpatine has some particular connection to Snoke and may have been manipulating events through him all along. We were given a faint preview of this basic idea with Luke Force-projecting himself and fooling Kylo into believing he was battling a corporeal, younger form of his old Jedi teacher. In other words, powerful Force users aren’t to be underestimated, and appearances can be deceiving in this sequel trilogy.

      And the title of the first sequel entry, “The Force Awakens”, also seems to imply the good guys and bad guys, especially, can do almost anything, with sufficient application of will — as (clumsily) manifested in Finn’s sudden defection from the First Order and Rey’s near-infinite ar”ray” of skills and abilities. Then we have the chest scene and Abrams’ whole “Mystery Box” approach to consider. Some kind of twist ending, and a whole series of plot gimmicks, are not out of the question here. But a lot of it definitely goes back to Abrams and Disney banking on nostalgia and reverting to classic Star Wars touchstones.

      You also seem to be on the money where the “Dark Rey” tease is drawing its inspiration from:

      **SPOILER ALERT**

      https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a28833977/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-dark-rey-evil-spoiler-website-vision/

      • Michael Kelly

        @Cryo…
        Well Hello There!

        “The Rise of Mikeximus”… LMAO. It’s funny, because I feel like Luke Skywalker in TLJ, when he cut himself off from the Force, I have, for the most part, cut myself off from Star Wars. With the exception of a little bit I see on my Facebook feed, which I usually scroll right by, I don’t have much connection with Star Wars lately. I don’t read articles, buy magazines, go to the Starwars.com website, or visit any forums. I sometimes will engage a little on facebook when something comes along that peeks my interest, like a trailer or sizzle reel, but all the click bait speculation articles about Emperor Clones, and Dark Side Rey, I really just don’t care. I roll my eyes at the articles where Disney rolls out Lucas to their different movie or tv sets in order to legitimize their debauchery.

        I have read some comments on facebook about the interpretations of the first trailer and how Abrams might be dropping hints of “fixing” what TLJ did… True or not, I don’t know, but, what I do know is that the problems of TLJ, at least for me, cannot be undone. All Abrams can do is bring back icons (Anakin/Luke’s Lightsaber and Kylo’s Helmet) in order to maybe appease some people. In the end though, it is Abrams that set in motion one of the most heinous of Sins… The destruction of the Original 3 (Luke, Han, Leia). That sin carried into TLJ with Luke, and turned out to be exactly what a lot of us on TFN feared. A total reversal of the character Luke Skywalker because again, they could not figureout any other way to incorporate Luke into the story other than him being a failure, that is pouting and is throwing a pity party while people are dying by his Nephew’s hand.

        So again, that is where I feel the Emperor comes in. Not because there is some special narrative attached to the Emperor being back and somehow someway surviving, but it comes across again as no way to compelling story that while might have some similarities, is different. As you and I fought those on the TFN Boards so many years ago, the reality is there is a huge difference between Lucas’s “rhyming” and Abrams “rhyming”.

        Now to think there is one movie left, 2, maybe 2 and a half hours left of story to somehow wrap this all up? That’s why I can’t get behind any of these theories of Cloned Emperors, Dark Side Rey’s etc etc. There is just not enough story left, especially once you get passed Abrams signature of action action action action action little bit of story.. action action action action…

        I guess I am entirely cynical now on Disney Star Wars. My bias is complete. I have no faith in Disney, in Abrams, in anything Star Wars, of course past the Lucas Saga…

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Michael

        Yeah, these naive sequelists (see r/StarWars) who think TLJ will somehow be redeemed and retrospectively adored after Episode IX comes out are living in cloud cuckoo land.

        Look at AotC today. Was the success of RotS able to save it? No – if anything, people on the internet have become more hostile to it.

        TRoS may be good, it may be bad, but TLJ will always be the trainwreck that hard evidence pointed to an enormous drop in engagement with Star Wars.

        This “Dark Rey” is an obvious ploy to drum up fan speculation for the new film. I’m already starting to loose interest in it, as it dawns on me that it has cosplay written all over it.

      • Natalie

        Yay, Mike is here!

        “I roll my eyes at the articles where Disney rolls out Lucas to their different movie or tv sets in order to legitimize their debauchery.”

        Did you hear Lucas potentially contributed some ideas to TROS and potentially to whatever Dumb & Dumber is working on? I wonder if Disney made a big contribution to GL’s museum or something.

        ” All Abrams can do is bring back icons (Anakin/Luke’s Lightsaber and Kylo’s Helmet) in order to maybe appease some people. In the end though, it is Abrams that set in motion one of the most heinous of Sins… The destruction of the Original 3 (Luke, Han, Leia). That sin carried into TLJ with Luke, and turned out to be exactly what a lot of us on TFN feared. A total reversal of the character Luke Skywalker because again, they could not figureout any other way to incorporate Luke into the story other than him being a failure, that is pouting and is throwing a pity party while people are dying by his Nephew’s hand.”

        I don’t know what they were thinking. The first rule of any successful sequel is that you start with the familiar characters, themes and/or locations before introducing a new characters and other stuff. TESB starts with Han & Luke & Imperial ships in space, LOTR with BIlbo and Gandalf (and the Shire), Aliens 2 with Ripley being found, Terminator 2 with Arnie being sent back, etc. Depending on the story, the protagonist may stay the same or pass the baton to someone else. All these stories except maybe TESB can also work without viewing the previous installments. Of course, it requires creative storytelling, something that current Lucasfilm is completely incapable of. I mean, SW is the biggest original movie franchise in the film history who fans had waited for decades to see their favorite characters reunited. Sadly, this will never happen now.

        I think JJ simply didn’t know what to do with Luke and took a cowardly way out by not featuring him at all except a few seconds at the end while RJ was all about subverting expectations so Luke had to be the total opposite of any reasonable expectations based on the OT. I suspect JJ wasn’t too happy about it and will probably try to show Luke as a more heroic ghost or something.

        When I rewatched TPM recently I was thinking Qui-Gon was a lot like Luke’s projection in the past of the Jedi Order. He seems to be less dogmatic and at odds with the Council, sort of like Luke argued with Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT. I suspect GL’s Luke would have been a very powerful and wise, but also warm and approachable Jedi Master.

      • archdukeofnaboo

        @Natalie

        I don’t think the issue is that Luke would ever complain, or critique, the Jedi Order’s behaviour during the final days of the Republic. We do it on this site all the time, and I believe he’d be fully justified given their horrible treatment of his father. I mean, at the end of the day, Luke owes his existence to Anakin bending the rules.

        The real issue is that Episode VIII gets completely bogged down in this area, becoming an unwanted review of the events of ROTS (53 years ago), and then utterly rejects the idea of any heroism in Luke. It is hopelessness for the sake of hopelessness – a gimmick that wears off pretty fast, and upset many life-long Star Wars fans.

        I have no problem with Luke failing in his later life. The problem is that Luke, after bizarrely trying to murder his nephew, simply gave up, turned his back on The Force and exiled himself – completely out-of-character behaviour that Hammill has spoken eloquently about. It’s a ludicrous flip and the explanation for it just doesn’t hold up.

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